01. Promoting responsible investment across Europe - Catherine Howarth OBE (CEO at ShareAction)

In this episode, we welcome Catherine Howarth who has been pioneering systems change for over a decade with ShareAction.

ShareAction coordinates civil society activism to promote responsible investment across Europe. 

We explore the critical role that finance, pension funds, asset managers and big banks have in transitioning to a low carbon future and that there is no space in our carbon budget for further investment in fossil fuels.

Catherine talks about their formula for successful campaigning, the need for us to be a movement for change and influence our pension funds and how that can happen and a vision for a sustainable financial system that serves society instead of being so self-serving.

You can support the work that ShareAction does by visiting https://shareaction.org/ 

Who is Catherine Howarth 

Since 2008, Catherine has been the Chief Executive of ShareAction, an organization that coordinates civil society activism to promote responsible investment across Europe. 

In addition to her role at ShareAction, Catherine is a board member of the Scott Trust and serves on the HM Treasury’s Asset Management Taskforce.

She also holds a First Class BA in Modern History from Oxford University and an MSc in Industrial Relations from the London School of Economics. 

Catherine's expertise in corporate governance has not gone unnoticed, as she was named a 'Rising Star of Corporate Governance' by Yale University's Millstein Center in 2011, and recognised by the World Economic Forum as a Young Global Leader in 2014.

When Catherine finds the time for herself, she loves heading up to Scotland to spend some time in the mountains and by the sea.

Of course, her two boys keep her occupied at home, but she still manages to sneak in some runs around the East End of London when she can. 

Where shall we go next, what questions shall we ask? To co-create the podcast with us, connect with fellow change makers in the FuturePlanet community of action, visit www.futureplanet.love to sign in or sign up.

Transcript

0:01

We are on an adventure to unite the stories and solutions of the pioneers, creating a better future for all. Together, we will journey to every continent, every country and community, and ask the question, what is the future you dream of? We will explore the blockers to us getting there, and we'll ask, what will it take? What do we. What do you need to create a future where we all thrive in balance and harmony with nature and each other? In this episode, we welcome Catherine Howeth, who's been pioneering systems change for over a decade with share. Share action coordinates civil society activism to promote responsible investment across Europe. We explore the critical role that finance, pension funds, asset managers, and big banks have in transitioning to a low carbon future, and there is no space in our carbon budget for further investment in fossil fuels. Catherine talks about their formula for successful campaigning, the need for us to be a movement for change and influence our pension funds and how that can. And a vision for a sustainable financial system that serves society. Instead of being so self-serving, you can support the work that Share action does by visiting share action.org. Let's get into it.

carl_pratt: 1:39

Hi. Nice to see you. Nice to welcome you to the podcast. Um, I feel like the best person to introduce yourself would probably be you. So who are you and where are you from?

Track 1: 1:49

Hi, Carl. Uh, thank you so much for this invitation. I'm, I'm, Looking forward to our chat. Uh, I'm Catherine Howeth, and I guess you asked me, I mean, there's lots of things about who I am, but I guess you asked me because I have been working for a very long time, more than 10 years, at Share Action, which is an organization trying to create systemic change. in the financial sector and make the financial sector one that really serves our planet and its people.

Carl Pratt: 2:21

Hmm.

Catherine Howarth: 2:22

And we, what we love to do is get into a sort of form of constructive trouble. we are shareholder activists driven by our social and environmental ambitions and ideals. And what, what, what we sort of do. Like use this incredible toolkit that exists that shareholders have, you know, the right to turn up at the annual general meeting of a really powerful company and speak direct to the board, uh, the right to file a proposal, a shareholder proposal, which all of the shareholders have to vote on, that kind of thing. So we, yeah, that's what we do. And I've been. Having a very good time with it, experimenting with it, and trying to stretch myself along the way for, yeah, 14 years.

carl_pratt: 3:14

It's been fantastic to notice and watch the movement. I think that you've built, grow and certainly this, the team that you've built grow and see it evolve over time and, um, as you've worked through different, different. Projects and, and supported different organizations as well. I love the idea of constructive activism. I think for me it's one of the heart stones of how we'll create systemic change. And I love the space that shareholder, uh, action share, share action. Sorry. Should get that right. Share action. Yeah. Shareholder action in fact is exactly what you're looking for, right? So yeah. I love the space that share hack action exists. Face it. Shaha action exists in and the role that it plays and. As a community, we've seen the more and more the importance of the investor relationships and the relationships that shareholders have with businesses. Certainly to empower change makers that are looking to transform those organizations to be better, to be able to get that buy-in from those senior stakeholders as well. Um, and it's, it's one of those organizations that I've always seen as being an ally. As opposed to an against in, in terms of like the movement for change, what are some of the projects that you've worked on over the last, uh, I guess four to five, maybe six or maybe more years, that kind of, sort of give us an example or give us an illustration around some of the work that you've, you do and some of the challenges that you look to solve through the work that you do.

Track 1: 4:28

So I'll, I'll give you a couple of examples. So one, one thing that's just been more in the, in the last five, six years, uh, is the work that we've done to challenge. Massive banks that all the biggest banks in the uk, but actually a huge number of banks across the whole of Europe, to really step up around the critical role they have to play in the climate, uh, transition, the low carbon transition. So, uh, you know, everyone fixates and rightly so on the fossil fuel industry, but frankly, uh, they can't make progress without bank financing, without loans, without, uh, Being able to issue bonds and so on, all of which is undertaken by their allies in the banking sector. So we thought it would be a smart thing to focus our climate work on the banks, and it has actually proved incredibly fun, but really effective too. And, and the reason banks are important is not just that they are playing this incredibly problematic role in financing. More fossil fuels and we know that there's just literally no space in the carbon budget for any more new fossil fuel financing. But they could, the banks are powerful cause they could pivot. They could pivot the lending from fossil fuels to clean and green and, uh, we are not gonna create this low carbon transition without massive ramp up of, of new finance and capital going into. Entrepreneurs, but also bigger companies that are doing renewables and, and doing smart green solutions to all kinds of problems. So we just thought it was really important to get focused on the banks and using the Share action toolkit. Uh, you know, we, they're very easy to buy, you know, buy, like years ago, I first bought, uh, shares in h s bbc, uh, for a bit of activism. I'll come onto that one in, in a minute, but, You know, it's just so easy to to buy a few shares in a bank and turn up at the annual general meeting and make a bit of a fuss. But also all of the big pension funds, all of the big asset managers have huge holdings in the bank, so it felt quite possible to start building a coalition. of investor power, but also by the way, which we've done all along is, is to kind of collaborate with allies in parliament, allies in civil society. Everyone's interested in banks. A lot of people are quite crossed with banks, to be honest, which was quite helpful, um, with this campaign. But it's been really positive to to see. The traction that we've got with that and exciting cuz it's just really does make a difference when banks decide they're not gonna finance any more exploration in the Arctic or any more new coal that really does choke off a really important, um,

carl_pratt: 7:16

huge.

Track 1: 7:17

channel, uh, of sustenance for things that are problematic and shouldn't be sustained. So that's been a fabulous campaign. Been a bit of an adventure for us and um, but the other one I'll mention, which goes back

carl_pratt: 7:32

just, it's a bit like keyhole keyhole surgery that you perform, like it's very focused, very targeted. and sorry to interrupt, but I just felt like blending with what you're hearing like, and so I remember talking to Jamie Broderick about how many tweets it might take to get a pension company to look and think about what they were doing. And it's a very small number of people in a very focused way to the right person that it takes for someone to think, oh, hang on a minute. Maybe I should be. And so I've really, really fascinated and passionate. Those types of very incisive, quite simple, quite straightforward solutions. And I like the idea of the fact that you built a tool, I think you mentioned a toolkit or a framework as well. Is that what you built for? Yeah. Is that quite simple to follow so different people can,

Track 1: 8:17

It really is simple. Like we actually can have a bit of a formula. So what we do with a typical campaign and what we did for the banks was you first go out and do a little bit of research on the banks, and then we rank them publicly, um, based on their climate performance. And then you show that research to people that have a lot of shares in banks, like asset managers. And you say, look, there's an issue here. What about coming with us on this? and then you start some shareholder activism and off you go. And it, it's, and then, and by the way, it's a bit of a kind of rinse and repeat thing. So we did the, we did the first banking ranking. and then we've done two more. Um, because each time actually what you wanna do is create a bit of competition in the banking sector to be good, um, on the climate agenda. And actually we just, just bringing out a new, uh, version three of our ranking. And of course everyone's really jostling and, um, it's funny the way like the people that come at the top of the ranking are like thrilled, um, even though. A lot of them have a lot further to go. Um, but the ones at the bottom, it's, it's embarrassing and problematic and it really, really motivates them. I mean, I'll give you one specific example. Lloyd's Bank, the first time we did the banking ranking, Lloyd's Bank came at the bottom. Or maybe there was second from bottom. I can't remember. Like really poor. And, and somebody in Lloyd's used our report for two years solid to get them to completely change everything they do. And then the next time we ranked them, they came second from the top. So it just, it was just a really nice, so what I love is when our work is useful to the change makers on the inside of

carl_pratt: 10:03

That feels so powerful to receive. I really love that. Yeah. That's a great solution. I lost, I actually got, so I got, so I got so taken away with how good that was. I completely forgot the next like piece that I was gonna share. Let me just sit for it with it for a moment. Um,

Track 1: 10:25

Okay.

carl_pratt: 10:27

Nope, it's gone completely. You might

Track 1: 10:29

Well, I could tell

carl_pratt: 10:30

Tell us another story Yeah. Go,

Track 1: 10:31

you asked me for, you told me, you asked me for two examples. I got another one. I wanna. Um, which cuz this one goes back even further into my deep history. Before I did this work, I was a, I was a community organizer, like community activist working in the east end of London at the time when Canary Wolff was just sprouting up as a great big financial district. And there were just a small number of towers and, um, the, there was the central main canary wolf tower and. I was working, uh, on the very, very earliest days of the living wage campaign in the uk. In fact, I was the first person employed to like get to work on it and we thought that uh, Canary Wharf Banks would be a really good target. Um, and at the time, Barclays and HSBC were both building their new World headquarters. We just thought that it would be a really good idea to buy a few shares in those banks and go to the annual general meeting. And I went to the one of those meetings with a guy who was cleaning, um, the main canary wolf tower was, uh, all lined up to start work at the HSBC Tower. And he asked this amazing question in the annual general meeting of hsbc. This is 20 years ago. And, and it was really nice cuz he. He was a very sort of humble person, but really well-read and like he was an amazing guy. He was just cleaning for a pitance in, uh, in this huge business district of Canary Wharf. And his question was so well delivered and it got a, like all this support from. old pensioners. And particularly I remember one old woman who was, um, older, lady uh, who was one of the shareholders of the bank, and she was so moved by his question. She stood up and like asked a spontaneous question to signal her support, like put a bit of extra pressure on the board. And so, but then because of this rival we thing, which is really useful to exploit. Bar Police was actually the first bank, um, to commit to paying a living wage to the cleaners at its headquarters. And then, of course, h s BBC was absolutely compelled to follow. And, and off the back of that, um, then some years later I joined Share Action. And I thought, well, you know, I wanna stick with what I, a campaign I really love and means a lot to me. I took that campaign, if you like, from community organizing setting into share action, and we've been working on it ever since. And now more than half of the foot, two 100 companies, which are the biggest companies in the uk. Um, they're all accredited living wage employers now. Um, but we still haven't won everything we wanna win. And, and this year, uh, we ramped it up by filing a shareholder resolution at Saints. and pushed them, um, on this issue of the living wage. And actually they, they did raise the wages of 19,000 Saint speed workers in London to the London living wage rate, but they didn't commit. to becoming an accredited living wage employer, which would compel them every year when the living wage rate goes up to stick with it. They didn't wanna do that. So we, we haven't completely won. And you know, it's always a work in progress. And one of our core values at Share Action is persistence. The other one by the way, is courage. Um, So it takes a lot of courage, but it absolutely takes a lot of, uh, persistence. And so I've been working on that campaign with many, many amazing people that I love dearly for 20 years. And it's, it's, it's unfinished work, but the battle goes on.

carl_pratt: 14:35

But I think I, I think that's the thing with working in transformation, particularly in this, in, in the space that we work in, is it's always, uh, always unfinished work. And so one of the things that I really grapple with is when do I say to myself, you did a good job, enough's enough for today, kind of thing. And I find that, I find that sort of a fascinating sort of thing to explore. We don't need to go off on too much of a tangent now, but like certainly the way that we feel about ourselves in this movement for change and how we feel about ourselves and this sort of need, like for me, like did I do enough? Is like often something that I saw. Cause it's endless, right? Like that, like there is always something.

Track 1: 15:15

It is, it is endless. It is endless. And my, my two boys who are 11 and 12, like to remind me of that and you know, cuz they're another incredibly important project and uh, they need time too. Although it's funny because I actually had the kids just very, very shortly after joining Share Action, which was my, you know, really exciting new job. And by the way, I never dreamt in a million years I'd still be here 14 years later. Like I, I, anyway, you can't see that far ahead can you I in your life. But quite soon after I joined, I had baby one, and then, uh, 13 months later I had baby two. it kind of forced me to have a bit of balance in my life, which was no bad thing at all. And I know that the boys would, you know, they probably think I worked too hard and I probably do. But, um, thanks to them I work better and smarter because I just can't think about work all the time cuz I have to go off and do fun things with.

carl_pratt: 16:25

Yeah, that feels really lovely. And it certainly, this is, let's explore this cause this feels nice actually, that sort of human en human element of being a change maker that I'm like sort of the, you know, the side where, It's a funny mix, isn't it? Cuz we've got a lot of people that have got families of course within the community. And I, I think I would add to courage and persistence, resilience and perhaps recharging as well. Like how are we recharging, where are we recharging and resilience is part and parcel with that. And so we've cert, I've certainly noticed the need to like create community in a way that feels like it in is inclusive. And by that, are we making it? Are we making it a space that people can connect with at different times of the day according, or different times of the week according to whether they've got to do the school run or something like that. But that's kind of, so it feels interesting and curious to sort of create spaces and ways that we can all play a role and all be engaged whilst also balancing just enjoying the world that we're furiously trying to like preserve, I suppose, would be sort of the Yeah, it's a really interesting,

Track 1: 17:29

But I, I think that when I have, when I have holiday time, which is vital and like gets you away from the desk, which is heaven, not that I'm really, really deskbound, I'm very fortunate not to be too, too badly deskbound. But, um, but what I was gonna say about holiday time is that it's, I, I actually do. Think about my work quite a bit during the holiday, and I have really creative and good ideas when I'm away, and it's just so important to get away from the, from the daily grind, even though of course I'm a big believer in graft and I, I don't think change in transformation comes through anything other than persistent and great effort. Um, I don't think. There's no, you know, there isn't a pill that you take and it happens. It's just, it's all hard work, but it's really true that it needs a pattern of coming in and out of modes of it. And, uh, you know, and I, I always take a whole month in the summer away. partly cuz my boys really deserve like a lovely chunk of time and we often go, we usually go to Scotland and go in the mountains and that's lovely. But I, I, I come back and it's, it's not been lost time. It's actually incredibly things filter. You come back, you're being bit better decisions, you prioritize better it.

carl_pratt: 18:59

I definitely agree with that. As a founder, I've sort of explored what my own process and structure is, and we're also exploring seasonality around community as well. So when do we feel like pe, what things do people feel like they need to receive or share at different times through the year? And I reached out to someone, um, and I was like, Hey, do you wanna come on the podcast? He's like, I'm taking the whole of the winter off to hibernate and then I'll be back in spring. I was like, oh my God, that's amazing. Like, that's such a, such an as, like I feel like that's partly an aspiration to be. Create those spaces. Certainly we felt like August and December a time is for intro in introspection and, and I love the idea of being able to take space to create, uh, it's difficult when there's a lot on and you're very action focused. But I really like, I like the idea of, of building that and I suppose in, in a way that's part of, um, Part of the theme of this is a future we can all love and I suppose us figuring out our own lives and how we would like our own lives to be structured feels like part of figuring out what that future future could be. And it's quite a neat segue actually to ask you, so I I, you know, one of the reasons why we we're bringing leading change makers together is to explore. what that future is. And I think a lot of the time we can get stuck in the daily due. So like what's our target? What are we doing for next year? What's our CSR plan and what's our strategy? Whatever, whatever that might be. But actually like taking a moment to really give ourselves that sort of 50 20 year perspective and not just like, oh, we want to hit 1.5 degrees. what world are we building? Like what does that, like, what is in that world? Like what are we aiming for? Not tactically, but like what is that? What is the, what is the context of that world? Like how do we live in that world? And I feel like one of the ways that we may, well, first of all, it gives us a vision and a, and a map and a place to place to aim for. It's like a vision board, but it also might stop us from going down cul-de-sac. So we've seen. You know, I don't think my, my personal view is I don't think everyone having an electric car is the future. Right. It can't be, it's just not possible. Or, and we've seen it in other industries as well, like composting in the packaging industry. It's like people went down a certain route and then realized that that probably wasn't the route to fully go down. And so I'm keen to sort of vision so we can know more fully like what that world we're painting or what that world to build is. I guess you could share two parts of it. So one might be from. professional perspective, but one might be from your, your own sort of heart center perspective. Like what's that world that you feel like we're aiming for?

Track 1: 21:36

Well, let me, so as you say, you can kind of fill this with a lot of platitudes about all the sustainable development goals would've been met and, um, and all, you know, and we'd be a one point, you know, we would have climate crisis under control and, and those things. are, are, are incredibly powerful goals and aspirations. So I don't want to park them completely, but I also feel that, you know, we, we, we've got, we've got agency here now in the present and whilst it's really important to be powered by a vision of a better future, it's very motivating. Um, and I think if you don't, if you don't have some clarity on the change you wanna bring about, it's difficult to get up in the morning and go for it. Um, so that, but at the same time, we probably should have the humility to acknowledge that ourselves in 20 years and all the other people involved in 20 years will be inventing the present then. So we can only kind of lay a path. And not be too prescriptive and try and over control what the future is. So where that takes me is thinking about, um, how am I gonna put this? Thinking about who has a seat at the table? That to me, is the critical thing we need to change in the present in order to shape a future that's desirable and just. So, for example, uh, you know, obviously what we're doing at Share Action is thinking about transformation in the financial sector and the financial system because it's such a powerful system for shaping the future. In fact, every investment decision is a bet on the future, if you like. It's all about the future, but it's also completely grounded in the problems of the present. And so one of our goals, one of our four goals as an organization. is that the finance system should be diverse and inclusive at every level, and it really isn't today. So today the people that have power and make decisions do not look like society at large. They certainly don't look like the global community at large. And so one of the things to Chip, chip, chip away at alongside all the campaigns that have high profile in which we are known for like, you know, the living wage or you know, fossil fuel financing in the banking sector is actually about. Who's got power and agency and how can we bring new voices in and disrupt the cozy status quo of a, kind of an elite that really cling on to power? Because as long as a small, tiny, and unrepresented elite hold onto power and finance, they will make decisions which shape the future in their. And so I, I, that's the thing I'm really passionate about is for, for shaping the future, is thinking about, yeah. Um, democratizing system

carl_pratt: 24:45

I love how you handle that question. You're like, no, we're going in this way and this is what I think, and it's such a great answer. I really, yeah. And so I, Hmm. I don't, I'm not that happy with chipping away though. Like, I understand the need for incremental, right. But I'm not that happy with it. So I feel like that's the fuck that feels like it's gonna take a long time. And so, um, how does that, how do we

Track 1: 25:10

No, you are right. You are right to be really dissatisfied. You're right to be really dissatisfied. But I think what can happen is that, so one of my inspirations always in my whole life has been, um, the suffragettes and, you know, women who said, God damn it. Why don't we have power to vote and to be part of, uh, who gets to make laws? And by the way, what about us being elected and being able to stand for parliament and so on? And, um, and I, but you know, that was a long campaign. It was a chip, chip, chip. And then suddenly, um, things change. I do think that one of the things we need to do is sort of, by the way, when you go back a hundred year and now it's so obvious that women should have the vote, but at the time, I tell you, there was vast sways of men, but also vast waves of women who said, no, you know, we're not interested. It's not appropriate. Uh, women don't have the education to be able to exercise the vote. And, and, and they came up with any number of excuses. And by the way, they look exactly like the excuses that are given for why people with pension savings shouldn't be empowered to be, you know, to have more of a say in the system. Um, so. It is one of those things where you've gotta sort of make the argument and then excite people about the argument, and then give them the things that they can do to create the change and push and push and be both impatient and patient at the same time.

carl_pratt: 26:49

Yeah. So I think you can exhilarate change and I think we are sort of arriving, we're arriving at that realization now. I, and I think so if, if I feel into like the movement. I mean this movement for a sustainable future, which has now changed to perhaps a regenerative future, which has been lots of different hat worn, lots of different hats. There's been, this is not the first iteration of it, um, but there is sort of a very strong sense of realism now, grounded in a sense of action and, and being backed up by, I guess, regulation and other things as well. So it feels like, you know, there's this sort of, if we look at together for implementation, there's this sort of change, you know, a very distinct change. in that probably when you started, you were in, it was a niche. It was like a niche topic for a niche group of people in an industry that was also fair, not niche, but like not seen as being integral to the whole. And then now it's, I think for the people that are within, within different industries, they understand the role that we all different play. We all play. And there's this sort of awakening of the need for collabo. Like on a, on a radical level, like on a radical level. And what I love about what you do is it's, it's constructive activism. And so if I think about the millions of people that perhaps were part of XR and were pointing for change in that way, which is an effective way to do it, but actually what is interesting is would imagine if we had a movement of people that were all in all the right roles that had access to the right toolkits that were able to unlock or provide momentum for the stuff, the work that you are doing. For example, like you can then. Easily see how you could start to flip systems with a much more system systematic and exhilarated way. And so one of the beliefs that I have and what we're building with Future Planet is an intentional community. Cuz if you have all those key activators in all those key organizations that are engaged in a community of action, then you can start to support people that are already doing great work to go further and. And so I, I think you can actually accelerate it. I, I, I, I think that the, the thing, some of the challenges around that are what to focus on what are the right people to welcome into the community or to, or that you need in the room. But I think that's an openness and, and if only my, if only is, if only we could utilize the same strengths and resources that people spend selling, selling on advertising. and the same level of like resources that, that, that happens there towards systematically building intentional, very, very intentional campaigns around systems change, particularly around exhilarating this. Then I think you could get there quite quickly cause I think you would build up a, a ahead of momentum. So I think a good question to ask is how in three years could we achieve X? And I dunno what the X would be, but I think that would be that, that, I don't know, I'm just, I'm riffing now.

Track 1: 29:45

Yeah. Uh oh. Well, I completely agree that, uh, Through collaboration and movement building that, that, that is com utterly, utterly critical. And we don't need to, we don't need to sort of build the entire movement from scratch. There's all, there's, so we just need to create bonds and relationships with already self-organized groups that are broadly aligned. I mean, you know, and, and be generous in kind of making sure that we co-own. The proposals and solutions that we are developing, but also we co-own any success that might, that might emerge. You know, it's movement, generosity is completely critical, but, um, collaboration without it, well, we are, we are completely lost. So, yeah. And of course, let's be honest, there's quite a bit of, um, There's competition and not net in, not in a good way within, um, within civil society, within the kind of sustainability, uh, social movements, you know, there's for a start. There's, there can be competition for funding, but there's also competition for airtime. And those things are really problematic. And I mean, they're understandable, but they're, they're not good. And we need to, but in terms of where, three years, I mean, I, I, one of the things that. We've been working on for years at She, so, sorry. It's worth saying one of the reasons that I, I'm happy in the organization is that we do things that have different time horizons and different kind of trajectories. So we'll do campaigns that are just in a single year and we get a, you know, sometimes we get fantastic result and that's brilliant. They're not systemic change, but they are meaningful little. Bits of progress where we've really made a change, made an impact, got a commitment out of, let's say a big company, and those little step by step bits, they're not systemic change, but they contribute to it because they build hope. And hope is an incredible asset in this kind of work. You, if you lose hope, you're finished. You've gotta, and, and so small wins. not just wins at the, at the kind of organizational level and winning this campaign, but wins in which people feel they were part of something and they learnt something and they, they, they stretched themselves and they, they were amazed by their own leadership in that moment. Those things are really hope building and then they lock you into the possibility for even bigger and more systemic change. And I do. that we need to change the law, for example, in a number of areas, um, to achieve a a, a truly sustainable, um, and. A sustainable financial system that serves society instead of being so self-serving as it as it has often been. Uh, and really just mainly serving the interests of people that work inside it as opposed to really being at the service of society and, and, and soci and, and addressing and helping to resolve some of the crises we face. But we will need to get the law changed. But to do that

carl_pratt: 33:00

would they be? Sorry, go to do that as well, but what laws would they be? And then to do that would be a good set follow up from.

Track 1: 33:07

Okay, so, so, so one thing we've been, we've been calling for, for years and, um, there's been little bit of change, but not nearly enough is what's called, it's a real sort of, bit of a technical term, but, it's called fiduciary duty of of institutional investors. So at the moment, if you put money out of your paycheck into a pension scheme, which millions and millions of people do, the people that you handed over to who run that pension scheme have obligations to act in your best interest. Quite rightly, they do, but at the moment, that's defined purely as maximizing. The investment returns that they get for you. So all they focus on is profit. That's all they're legally meant to focus on, and they can't really legally consider the fact that they're investing those things, that money that you gave them, and it's your money. They're investing it in ways that actually could undermine your future quality of life and your future security, which when you, when you think what a pension is there to do is a bit crazy, so you know, they can invest it in companies that sell deeply unhealthy food, they can invest it in companies that are. uh, destroying the, the climate through, uh, dirty energy. They can, they can, and they don't have. But if those make a amo, if those make a good profit, that's great. They've met their legal obligation to you. So we need to get that law changed so that they, so, so that the people look after your money, still have to act in your interest, but they're allowed to weigh. Financial return against negative impact and also pro positive impact. That would be transformational in terms of the legal underpinning of our financial system. And if we got it, then a L so much else would flow. It wouldn't be a silver bullet. There's no such thing as a silver bullet, but at the moment, it's one of the major barriers to having a financial system that really meets the needs of the moment in this. Multiple poly crisis or whatever we call it. And so that's one. But you know, at the moment it's on nobody's manifesto.

carl_pratt: 35:09

Yeah. Great. So let. Note the other ones, but let's explore this one. So why is that not happen and what would we

Track 1: 35:14

Get,

carl_pratt: 35:15

get it to happen?

Track 1: 35:17

so it has not happened. Cause I think mainly because we have as a movement and I put share action really. You know, take, take a share of responsibility. We haven't made the case, uh, to the public at large. We haven't made the case to the politicians, and we've gotta do that. We've gotta do that. Well, and so that's what I mean about, you know, each of our individual campaigns gets people excited and positive and, and really feel good, but it is just a bit too. It's like little tiny pieces and we need to be more ambition. You, you said it earlier, Carl, we, we got to think big now and so. and I, I think we haven't been as bold and imaginative in conveying the change we wanna bring about as we could be. So, but by the way, we're just about to really get to work on it. So if any, if this, if this, um, resonates with anyone on the podcast, uh, it would be really great to reach out cuz we are about to start really campaigning on this in a much more concerted way and try and make sure that, cuz we know in this country we're gonna have a general election in. By the end of 2024. Right. So our dream would be that over the next year and a half, as we get towards that, uh, people in every constituency are excited about this idea. They're bringing it to their parliamentary candidates, and we are trying to get all the major parties to sign up to bringing, introducing this change. And it would be be a bit like go, going back to the suffragettes we were talking about earlier, like, like it took them years and then finally, A parliament full of men voted that they should have the right to vote. And so it just takes a while, but you've gotta, you've gotta get people agitating for it. So that's what we

carl_pratt: 36:59

very, I think that that's fantastic. And so who do you, so who are the people that need to be, who do we need to call in who's like, so in the, in the local council? Who's that? That like I'm in, so I'm interested in, so I think most, sorry. Not all change happens because people, right. That's we, we make the systems, we can change the systems and then it's also about being intentional about who we. To join or who we look for. And there may be champions in that. They're the people that champion what we're doing, and then go and find the right people. Or there may be influences as well, but they're also key people. And then as you've done with your toolkits and frameworks and stuff, you will find they need to have a particular set of things. So I'm guessing that you've, you've, what you've been doing as well as creating hope and positivity and, and lots of change, is creating methodology and a structure and a process and a way of doing things that. when you're looking at something systemic, you can scale up. Who are those people that need to be? Who do we need to ask? Join?

Track 1: 38:02

Well, we, we absolutely need a movement all. Country of, because anyone with anyone with a pension has a stake in this directly. And you know, that's exciting because basically ba nearly everybody has one. So that's, that's that. That means, that means it's. it's all of our campaign, but who do we need to reach in terms of influencers, it is basically the parliamentarians and the, and the, and the, and the big parties. And of course that you mentioned the local councils, they're really important because they're obviously ob, obviously the local base of a lot of those parties and also each of the local authorities has a pension fund as well, so, so a lot of people in local, in local government are actually quite clued up about pensions, which is

carl_pratt: 38:44

fantastic. So we could do with finding an organization if you've not found them already, that has good strategic relationships with local councils or a multitude of organizations that have good strategic relationships with

Track 1: 38:57

that would be amazing. That would be amazing. And then, you know, there's an incredible, incredible grassroots environmental movement in the uk. Like if you care about the environment, if you care about the climate, if you care about the biodiversity and nature crisis. You kind of need to get serious about this finance problem. And so, you know, it really does, uh, wrap around so many of the things that people hold near and dear and are really committed to. It's just a tool for change, but a powerful one, just like, you know, votes for Women is a tool for change. It wasn't, it's not a thing in itself. It's an an unlocker, it's an enabler of.

carl_pratt: 39:35

really, I think those are the points where, you know, we talked about competition before. My sense is there's some things that it's really good to be competitive about, perhaps. But actually, um, there are some really. Key things that we all need to collaborate on. And those are often the systemic ones. And so this is an exact example where there are no competitors. You can only really collaborate on this. Like it's all about, okay, what do we need to do? How do we need to solve it? How do we work together? And the, in a way, The result is everyone's to share. So you don't need to say who gets what. The result is that we become successful in transforming the system. That feels like a completely appropriate like and apt result. Right? Like I would be happy with that. That would be good. So we are thinking about strategically aligned organizations that have got good influence in local councils, and then the influences that influence those. Local council. So that often, as you mentioned, quite rightly as constituents and perhaps people that already have a relationship with them, either around nature, by diversity, the, uh, the environment or social or also perhaps, um, their, their money and their personal money that they might have. That feels like an interesting group to call in And, um, I, that feels good. I think that we've done that bit. Okay. You mentioned before we went on this really nice, um, And perfectly like that is, it's exactly what I wanted to get from this, uh, exploration. You mentioned there was a second one, which I cut off before we went into that. Can you remember what that was? No. We might not be able to go back that far. No. So, okay. Let's, let's, let's start with a new, well, that might be it, that might be us. Like this is, this is like, we might have reached our, this is the full, uh, birthing of this whole idea that you've got here and how we support it, but, are there other blockers or knockers that you see that are of similar nature that could be supported or other ways that people could support what you are doing, for example?

Track 1: 41:19

I th look, I, I, I think that's, There are, there are other bits and pieces like at a globe, at a global level, we should have things like really strong, um, corporate sustainability reporting standards, but that's really technical. The thing that every, every person can get round is this change in the legal duties of pension funds. The, the, the duties they owe to. are not working in your interests in the way that they've been defined currently. And that is everyone's problem. We can all own it. And I think it's just a really exciting campaign to get behind. And I've, I've often thought about, you know, amazing campaigns in the past that were like, Jubilee 2000, Jubilee Debt, 2000, uh, in, in the Millennium. Like, like in some ways it was such a technical issue. uh, you know, international debt arrangements between poor countries and rich country. It's very technical, but as a campaign it was so beautiful because first of all, the concept of Jubilee goes back 2000 years. Like it's a freeing up, it's a letting go of old debts and old chains and, um, and bondage the bondage of, of, of debt and, and it was just such a beautiful campaign and they were really successful with it even though some of it was quite technical. And it's the same for this, for this work on for judiciary duties, pension schemes. It's kind of, it's got a really technical piece, but it's also got a really kind of simple message, which is they're looking after your money. Let's make them do it in a way that's really good for planet and people and for you, and isn't just fixated on. Profit maximization in a way that doesn't even make sense, isn't even smart. So I think that's a really, we are gonna play around with this, but what I'd love your help, Carl, I re cuz you're an amazing communicator and a real kind of, this is what we need to figure out. We're trying to work out how do we make this really resonate, really exciting, and then turn it into something that is politically unstoppable and has the backing of whatever government gets. Next time around, right there on their to-do list is rewrite these laws to make them fit for purpose for the future. I mean that, oh my God, it's making my spine tingle, just even thinking about it.

carl_pratt: 43:39

love it. I think, I think, I think, yeah, I think, um, I, I feel my role is to, is a connector and a convenor and a community space holder. And I know many wonderful people that will be interested in, in, in this. And I, and I also know many passionate people that are that are really looking to get involved in something proactive. And I think this is exactly the kind of thing that they would understand and understand how to do. And I'm lucky enough to know some great people that understand how to communicate things simply. So I feel maybe sometimes they're good communicator, but also often know many people that would be able to help with this. So let's call them in, let's welcome them to

Track 1: 44:14

you're a top connector. You.

carl_pratt: 44:17

how I'm of service. That's certainly how I'm of service. Yeah, yeah. And, and looking at it through that sort of systemic connecting perspective. Yeah, absolutely. I think. I think we need that, right? Like we need that like vanilla connection and I'm working with your nice compliment, but I, but I think there's also a very valid reason for building a community of a connected community alongside the existing system. I think that really adds our ability to be able to work much faster than perhaps we would be able to work if we were going within the existing systems. Um, your compliments through me.

Track 1: 44:54

Do you know what it's called? It's called, it's called People Power, and there's nothing more beautiful in the whole world.

carl_pratt: 45:00

feel that's true and I, I also feel like there's so much positive energy and there's a role that we collectively have, which is like, okay, well if you've got this energy, what do we do with it? And this is as much a hunt for that. So it feels wonderful to find an unlocking solution. I've got one more question about it, and there may be others that arise, like how does that connect up on a global level? Like how does that then t. other countries.

Track 1: 45:24

Oh, it's incredibly relevant all over the world. one of the reasons it connects is that the finance system is global and you know, your pension money is invested in economies all across the world. So if we fix this, then that's beneficial immediately, uh, to people everywhere. But it's also the case that people everywhere have, have investments and savings. United States, all across Europe, all across Africa, Asia, like, and so, We've fixed this here and I think it's our responsibility to try and get this right here. And by the way, you know, if you think about the UK and its history, we've always been, you know, finance is an important industry for our country. And, uh, so I think we have a particular responsibility in the UK as citizens to make sure that our financial system in this country is fit for purpose in the 21st century. but it, it absolutely, it might not be us that gets there first on this and that's okay too. That's wonderful. Um, you know, in Australia, in the US there's people absolutely working on the same problems and we are in touch with lots of them. It's very inspiring and, uh, this, it wouldn't be enough to win it in the uk. It absolutely needs to happen.

carl_pratt: 46:44

I love the fact that you're collaborating with other people in, or other organizations in other countries.

Track 1: 46:50

Yeah. We learn a lot and take a lot of inspiration from people all over.

carl_pratt: 46:53

I think. It's curious, isn't it? I think at some moments when we elect our, well, I don't know if we always choose who we have leading our country, but there's some moments when we're, we're given pause to think about the decisions that our country makes relevant to us. And I, I don't know if it always happens the way we feel we would like. I think for me, being able to. see and feel the actions we make as people within our countries as being the change we want to see in the world feels really appropriate. And I'm interested in, um, well, I'm not, I dunno if I am, I mean, virtue signaling isn't really what I'm interested in. I'm really interested in practical action to change the systems and societies that we live in. And I'm interested in leading. By example or doing rather than saying other people should do. And I think in that instance, if we look at the strengths of the UK that's been built up over the years, either in the political system or the financial system or whatever that might be as a, as a, as a heart of, of business, as a heart of finance, then it feels like a great place to transform and then, and, and work in partnership with others in other similar. Network hubs through the world that see those other hubs as being ways to transform. That feels like, yeah, I can see that cascading in a really interesting way if we get that right.

Track 1: 48:21

Absolutely.

carl_pratt: 48:22

Okay. Well done. I mean, you asked me how long we would be, and I never know, but it feels like there isn't, there isn't really another way that we could go after that.

Track 1: 48:31

No. Let's, let's stop. Let's, that's so I, I think let's stop. It's been such a pleasure and thank you for pulling things out of me. I wasn't sure I was gonna say I hadn't, you know, I prepared a little bit, but not too much cuz it's always just nice to lock into somebody else's consciousness and. Be led by their questions. So thank you so much for,

carl_pratt: 48:52

that.

Track 1: 48:52

helping PMI say the things I.

carl_pratt: 48:54

I'm nev, we're never sure where, I'm never sure where it's gonna go, but it always feels like the right things arrive and yeah, it's truly moving to. Receive what you are working on and how you've worked on, on it for such a long time and to sort of notice where you are now and connect with you at this, what could be a really pivotal movement moment in this movement. Um, so thank you for sharing that with me and with everyone that's listening to this podcast. And I look forward to collaborating and working with you on the actions that arrive as a result. Thank you.

Track 1: 49:27

Me too. Me too.

49:30

Please like, rate and share this widely on your social channels. The more people that we can welcome to join us on the. And support the change makers we champion. The faster we can combat climate change, battle by diversity, loss, and co-create a future we can all love thank you. Together, we can